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	<title>Comments on: Why Basecamp and Campfire would be a Better Learning Management System</title>
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	<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/</link>
	<description>Anton Zolotov&#039;s Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 01:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-34</guid>
		<description>I personally am amazed at how bad most learning management systems at schools are.  The discussion on Blackboard is awful, and the rest of it isn&#039;t too great either.  I would think that if schools focused at least a little of our tuition costs on their web apps that it would pay off, or at least make students&#039; time more productive and effective.

In a similar light to your article, I recently wrote about my experiences using Backpack and Writeboard (also from 37signals) in a group project in my class.  It worked so much better than anything else I&#039;d ever used in a group project!  I would love to see schools offer such tools directly to students!  Anyhow, if you&#039;re interested, you can find the article at http://techinch.com/2010/01/11/writeboard-class-projects-reinvented/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally am amazed at how bad most learning management systems at schools are.  The discussion on Blackboard is awful, and the rest of it isn&#8217;t too great either.  I would think that if schools focused at least a little of our tuition costs on their web apps that it would pay off, or at least make students&#8217; time more productive and effective.</p>
<p>In a similar light to your article, I recently wrote about my experiences using Backpack and Writeboard (also from 37signals) in a group project in my class.  It worked so much better than anything else I&#8217;d ever used in a group project!  I would love to see schools offer such tools directly to students!  Anyhow, if you&#8217;re interested, you can find the article at <a href="http://techinch.com/2010/01/11/writeboard-class-projects-reinvented/" rel="nofollow">http://techinch.com/2010/01/11/writeboard-class-projects-reinvented/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anton Zolotov</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Zolotov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 03:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-31</guid>
		<description>I am more than half-way done with my curriculum, but I have neither seen nor heard of Blackboard versions of any courses until now. Yet, this would not be an issue if the choice of the LMS would be up to professors and not the university. If professors have the power to choose between using Blackboard and not using Blackboard (many pretend to be using it without posting grades for example), why shouldn&#039;t they be allowed to use an LMS of their own choice? Even though reimbursement could be problematic. That way, the decision maker would also be the user. Integration with university-wide systems shouldn&#039;t be a problem, because the only data that is exchanged are the &#039;subscribing&#039; students. The gradebook doesn&#039;t even relate to the Registrar&#039;s system as far as I know, it&#039;s simply there to let the students know how they do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am more than half-way done with my curriculum, but I have neither seen nor heard of Blackboard versions of any courses until now. Yet, this would not be an issue if the choice of the LMS would be up to professors and not the university. If professors have the power to choose between using Blackboard and not using Blackboard (many pretend to be using it without posting grades for example), why shouldn&#8217;t they be allowed to use an LMS of their own choice? Even though reimbursement could be problematic. That way, the decision maker would also be the user. Integration with university-wide systems shouldn&#8217;t be a problem, because the only data that is exchanged are the &#8216;subscribing&#8217; students. The gradebook doesn&#8217;t even relate to the Registrar&#8217;s system as far as I know, it&#8217;s simply there to let the students know how they do.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Shapiro</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Shapiro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 22:39:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-29</guid>
		<description>Interesting post. I was unaware of the problems with BlackBoard you discussed (I&#039;m new in this industry). We are a SaaS LMS geared to K12. I believe we solve all the problems you cite, except the grade book. I don&#039;t see why we couldn&#039;t be used by a university, given the chance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post. I was unaware of the problems with BlackBoard you discussed (I&#8217;m new in this industry). We are a SaaS LMS geared to K12. I believe we solve all the problems you cite, except the grade book. I don&#8217;t see why we couldn&#8217;t be used by a university, given the chance.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Stawarz</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Stawarz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 20:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-28</guid>
		<description>Have you seen moodle.org an open sourced LMS product?  

I like your idea of using Basecamp, Campfire together to create an LMS. In fact, I might even think about trying to build a third party tool for it.  Then again, maybe not, but good idea.  

Besides bureaucracy, there is another reason Blackboard has the market.  Blackboard has relationships with Book Publishers. Textbooks publishers create blackboard versions of their courses which makes it relatively easy for professors to customize Blackboard for their own course which may or may not be a good for the students depending upon the textbook author, publisher, and the the professor&#039;s customizations.  If a college/university were to move to Basecamp &amp; Campfire or any other LMS, they would need to learn how to import the Blackboard course from the textbook publisher.  I guess that many LMS developers often forget about course creation and development.  

One aspect, I always liked about seeing when Students log into Blackboard, is I could use that as a grading aspect and as a matter of recourse for those students who claim to be doing work, but then not actually logging in and doing the work.  Although, one could substitute that easily with some other form.  

Good idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you seen moodle.org an open sourced LMS product?  </p>
<p>I like your idea of using Basecamp, Campfire together to create an LMS. In fact, I might even think about trying to build a third party tool for it.  Then again, maybe not, but good idea.  </p>
<p>Besides bureaucracy, there is another reason Blackboard has the market.  Blackboard has relationships with Book Publishers. Textbooks publishers create blackboard versions of their courses which makes it relatively easy for professors to customize Blackboard for their own course which may or may not be a good for the students depending upon the textbook author, publisher, and the the professor&#8217;s customizations.  If a college/university were to move to Basecamp &amp; Campfire or any other LMS, they would need to learn how to import the Blackboard course from the textbook publisher.  I guess that many LMS developers often forget about course creation and development.  </p>
<p>One aspect, I always liked about seeing when Students log into Blackboard, is I could use that as a grading aspect and as a matter of recourse for those students who claim to be doing work, but then not actually logging in and doing the work.  Although, one could substitute that easily with some other form.  </p>
<p>Good idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Anton Zolotov</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Zolotov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 16:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-26</guid>
		<description>Dear Wayne,

You raise an important point - how a subscription model would fix things. In my opinion, the main benefit of subscription based software is that it provides the newest software. It allows the developer to continually make software improvements and introduce new features. And that&#039;s the whole point. Only in rare cases can you reach a &quot;finished&quot; stage in an application where you don&#039;t have to make changes anymore. Upgrades force the decision makers to make more decisions - whether to upgrade. People don&#039;t like making decisions, because they are complex, and because they cost money, so they often resort to not make them at all, which in turn leads to the situation we&#039;re in right now with Blackboard.

If my school has not chosen to upgrade in 2.5 years, and it&#039;s not due to the licensing model, what could be the reason? I doubt they simply don&#039;t care enough. And if upgrades are part of the package, as you say, I don&#039;t see any reason not to upgrade.

My feeling is that we don&#039;t upgrade because of bad reasons: an antiquated business model that focuses on exploiting the customer rather than providing the best possible product and a bureaucratic structure where the decision makers are not the users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Wayne,</p>
<p>You raise an important point &#8211; how a subscription model would fix things. In my opinion, the main benefit of subscription based software is that it provides the newest software. It allows the developer to continually make software improvements and introduce new features. And that&#8217;s the whole point. Only in rare cases can you reach a &#8220;finished&#8221; stage in an application where you don&#8217;t have to make changes anymore. Upgrades force the decision makers to make more decisions &#8211; whether to upgrade. People don&#8217;t like making decisions, because they are complex, and because they cost money, so they often resort to not make them at all, which in turn leads to the situation we&#8217;re in right now with Blackboard.</p>
<p>If my school has not chosen to upgrade in 2.5 years, and it&#8217;s not due to the licensing model, what could be the reason? I doubt they simply don&#8217;t care enough. And if upgrades are part of the package, as you say, I don&#8217;t see any reason not to upgrade.</p>
<p>My feeling is that we don&#8217;t upgrade because of bad reasons: an antiquated business model that focuses on exploiting the customer rather than providing the best possible product and a bureaucratic structure where the decision makers are not the users.</p>
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		<title>By: Anton Zolotov</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Zolotov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-25</guid>
		<description>Alex,

Basecamp does allow you to export all your data if you are an account administrator, either in raw XML or in HTML format.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex,</p>
<p>Basecamp does allow you to export all your data if you are an account administrator, either in raw XML or in HTML format.</p>
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		<title>By: Anton Zolotov</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Zolotov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-24</guid>
		<description>Greg,

I am aware of that limitation, but I am wondering why you need to know what a student has done while logged in. How would that improve your performance as a professor? I think that if you care enough to raise that question, you don&#039;t depend on that feature anyways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,</p>
<p>I am aware of that limitation, but I am wondering why you need to know what a student has done while logged in. How would that improve your performance as a professor? I think that if you care enough to raise that question, you don&#8217;t depend on that feature anyways.</p>
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		<title>By: Anton Zolotov</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Zolotov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-23</guid>
		<description>Austin,

Sounds intriguing. Is it going to be for individual courses/professors, or university-wide?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Austin,</p>
<p>Sounds intriguing. Is it going to be for individual courses/professors, or university-wide?</p>
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		<title>By: Austin Bales</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-20</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin Bales</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-20</guid>
		<description>A project called Euclid started this fall at Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh that aims to solve these problems. It&#039;s focus has started small: assignments, grades, e-Mail, and documents. It&#039;s a configuration-free, subscription based Ruby application. It&#039;s also built with design, art and architects in mind with built-in galleries and critiques. SCORM and (often unusable) prior art aside, people really want a simple way to work, and that&#039;s what Euclid Project is about.

Professors can request more info at: http://euclid-project.org/beta</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A project called Euclid started this fall at Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh that aims to solve these problems. It&#8217;s focus has started small: assignments, grades, e-Mail, and documents. It&#8217;s a configuration-free, subscription based Ruby application. It&#8217;s also built with design, art and architects in mind with built-in galleries and critiques. SCORM and (often unusable) prior art aside, people really want a simple way to work, and that&#8217;s what Euclid Project is about.</p>
<p>Professors can request more info at: <a href="http://euclid-project.org/beta" rel="nofollow">http://euclid-project.org/beta</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jagath</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator>Jagath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-19</guid>
		<description>Anton, I fully agree with your comments about BlackBoard. I go to school at the University of Texas at Austin, and we use the same here too. I can confidently say that BlackBoard is one of the worst pieces of software I have ever used in my life. Most of my classmates are of the same opinion too. The design probably has not been updated in a few years. Agree that the UI skin has probably been changed over the years, but the usability absolutely sucks.

More importantly, you raise a great point -&quot;What I don’t understand is how our university can continue to use inadequate software&quot;. The answer, in my opinion, lies not in the software design, or in the business model, but in the organizational structure of the universities themselves. In large organizations, our universities for example, software buying decisions are often made by the top level  managers of the org hierarchy. These are people who do not interact with the final product on a daily basis. Most bureaucracies stabilize around the lowest common denominator - a safe solution where no body is gonna get fired because they took a risk by trying something others have not. They look at similar organizations around them and identify a set of &quot;best practices&quot; and adopt those practices to minimize the risk. It is not that they don&#039;t realize that BlackBoard sucks, they are stuck with it because of the structure of the organization they are in. 

This point is very well illustrated by the story highlighted by Dustin Curtis in his blog. http://dustincurtis.com/incompetence.html - The incompetence of American Airlines and the fate of Mr. X. To quote from the blog - &quot;The problem with the design of AA.com, lies less in our competency (or lack thereof, as you pointed out in your post) and more with the culture and processes employed here at American Airlines…&quot; Well worth a read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anton, I fully agree with your comments about BlackBoard. I go to school at the University of Texas at Austin, and we use the same here too. I can confidently say that BlackBoard is one of the worst pieces of software I have ever used in my life. Most of my classmates are of the same opinion too. The design probably has not been updated in a few years. Agree that the UI skin has probably been changed over the years, but the usability absolutely sucks.</p>
<p>More importantly, you raise a great point -&#8221;What I don’t understand is how our university can continue to use inadequate software&#8221;. The answer, in my opinion, lies not in the software design, or in the business model, but in the organizational structure of the universities themselves. In large organizations, our universities for example, software buying decisions are often made by the top level  managers of the org hierarchy. These are people who do not interact with the final product on a daily basis. Most bureaucracies stabilize around the lowest common denominator &#8211; a safe solution where no body is gonna get fired because they took a risk by trying something others have not. They look at similar organizations around them and identify a set of &#8220;best practices&#8221; and adopt those practices to minimize the risk. It is not that they don&#8217;t realize that BlackBoard sucks, they are stuck with it because of the structure of the organization they are in. </p>
<p>This point is very well illustrated by the story highlighted by Dustin Curtis in his blog. <a href="http://dustincurtis.com/incompetence.html" rel="nofollow">http://dustincurtis.com/incompetence.html</a> &#8211; The incompetence of American Airlines and the fate of Mr. X. To quote from the blog &#8211; &#8220;The problem with the design of AA.com, lies less in our competency (or lack thereof, as you pointed out in your post) and more with the culture and processes employed here at American Airlines…&#8221; Well worth a read.</p>
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