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	<title>Comments on: Why Basecamp and Campfire would be a Better Learning Management System</title>
	<atom:link href="http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/</link>
	<description>Anton Zolotov&#039;s Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Sonya</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-962</link>
		<dc:creator>Sonya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Oct 2010 08:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-962</guid>
		<description>PLEASE will someone make a few LMS plugins for Basecamp/Highrise/Backpack!

We have been running our small academy on Moodle for the past year.  We were SO impressed with ourselves - hacking away at plugins and themes - editing and tweaking - learning php on the fly... working through nights to get some function working - nagging and cajoling and downright FORCING lecturers, staff and students to use the damn thing!  Moodle is only user-friendly if you were part of the team that learnt how to use it by hacking it to bits! Moodle has become a swear word to all students and staff.  Nonetheless, we were very proud of our Moodle site... UNTIL... the management team started using Highrise.

Highrise is like breathing.  Instinctive.  Simple.  Elegant.  The management team needed no training.  It makes me (the COO) feel safe - as long as my team are bcc-ing the dropbox - everything will be fine.  It doesn&#039;t take them any extra effort or time to stay organized.  We don&#039;t have to tweak anything to make it work for us - it fits like a glove.  Now I want the same for our LMS.

I came across this post while searching for &quot;LMS similar to Highrise&quot;.

If there is anyone out there who can develop a gradebook plugin for one of the 37signals products - you will have our eternal gratitude.

sonya@academyidt.co.za</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PLEASE will someone make a few LMS plugins for Basecamp/Highrise/Backpack!</p>
<p>We have been running our small academy on Moodle for the past year.  We were SO impressed with ourselves &#8211; hacking away at plugins and themes &#8211; editing and tweaking &#8211; learning php on the fly&#8230; working through nights to get some function working &#8211; nagging and cajoling and downright FORCING lecturers, staff and students to use the damn thing!  Moodle is only user-friendly if you were part of the team that learnt how to use it by hacking it to bits! Moodle has become a swear word to all students and staff.  Nonetheless, we were very proud of our Moodle site&#8230; UNTIL&#8230; the management team started using Highrise.</p>
<p>Highrise is like breathing.  Instinctive.  Simple.  Elegant.  The management team needed no training.  It makes me (the COO) feel safe &#8211; as long as my team are bcc-ing the dropbox &#8211; everything will be fine.  It doesn&#8217;t take them any extra effort or time to stay organized.  We don&#8217;t have to tweak anything to make it work for us &#8211; it fits like a glove.  Now I want the same for our LMS.</p>
<p>I came across this post while searching for &#8220;LMS similar to Highrise&#8221;.</p>
<p>If there is anyone out there who can develop a gradebook plugin for one of the 37signals products &#8211; you will have our eternal gratitude.</p>
<p><a href="mailto:sonya@academyidt.co.za">sonya@academyidt.co.za</a></p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 01:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-34</guid>
		<description>I personally am amazed at how bad most learning management systems at schools are.  The discussion on Blackboard is awful, and the rest of it isn&#039;t too great either.  I would think that if schools focused at least a little of our tuition costs on their web apps that it would pay off, or at least make students&#039; time more productive and effective.

In a similar light to your article, I recently wrote about my experiences using Backpack and Writeboard (also from 37signals) in a group project in my class.  It worked so much better than anything else I&#039;d ever used in a group project!  I would love to see schools offer such tools directly to students!  Anyhow, if you&#039;re interested, you can find the article at http://techinch.com/2010/01/11/writeboard-class-projects-reinvented/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally am amazed at how bad most learning management systems at schools are.  The discussion on Blackboard is awful, and the rest of it isn&#8217;t too great either.  I would think that if schools focused at least a little of our tuition costs on their web apps that it would pay off, or at least make students&#8217; time more productive and effective.</p>
<p>In a similar light to your article, I recently wrote about my experiences using Backpack and Writeboard (also from 37signals) in a group project in my class.  It worked so much better than anything else I&#8217;d ever used in a group project!  I would love to see schools offer such tools directly to students!  Anyhow, if you&#8217;re interested, you can find the article at <a href="http://techinch.com/2010/01/11/writeboard-class-projects-reinvented/" rel="nofollow">http://techinch.com/2010/01/11/writeboard-class-projects-reinvented/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anton Zolotov</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Zolotov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 03:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-31</guid>
		<description>I am more than half-way done with my curriculum, but I have neither seen nor heard of Blackboard versions of any courses until now. Yet, this would not be an issue if the choice of the LMS would be up to professors and not the university. If professors have the power to choose between using Blackboard and not using Blackboard (many pretend to be using it without posting grades for example), why shouldn&#039;t they be allowed to use an LMS of their own choice? Even though reimbursement could be problematic. That way, the decision maker would also be the user. Integration with university-wide systems shouldn&#039;t be a problem, because the only data that is exchanged are the &#039;subscribing&#039; students. The gradebook doesn&#039;t even relate to the Registrar&#039;s system as far as I know, it&#039;s simply there to let the students know how they do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am more than half-way done with my curriculum, but I have neither seen nor heard of Blackboard versions of any courses until now. Yet, this would not be an issue if the choice of the LMS would be up to professors and not the university. If professors have the power to choose between using Blackboard and not using Blackboard (many pretend to be using it without posting grades for example), why shouldn&#8217;t they be allowed to use an LMS of their own choice? Even though reimbursement could be problematic. That way, the decision maker would also be the user. Integration with university-wide systems shouldn&#8217;t be a problem, because the only data that is exchanged are the &#8216;subscribing&#8217; students. The gradebook doesn&#8217;t even relate to the Registrar&#8217;s system as far as I know, it&#8217;s simply there to let the students know how they do.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Shapiro</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Shapiro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 22:39:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-29</guid>
		<description>Interesting post. I was unaware of the problems with BlackBoard you discussed (I&#039;m new in this industry). We are a SaaS LMS geared to K12. I believe we solve all the problems you cite, except the grade book. I don&#039;t see why we couldn&#039;t be used by a university, given the chance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post. I was unaware of the problems with BlackBoard you discussed (I&#8217;m new in this industry). We are a SaaS LMS geared to K12. I believe we solve all the problems you cite, except the grade book. I don&#8217;t see why we couldn&#8217;t be used by a university, given the chance.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Stawarz</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Stawarz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 20:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-28</guid>
		<description>Have you seen moodle.org an open sourced LMS product?  

I like your idea of using Basecamp, Campfire together to create an LMS. In fact, I might even think about trying to build a third party tool for it.  Then again, maybe not, but good idea.  

Besides bureaucracy, there is another reason Blackboard has the market.  Blackboard has relationships with Book Publishers. Textbooks publishers create blackboard versions of their courses which makes it relatively easy for professors to customize Blackboard for their own course which may or may not be a good for the students depending upon the textbook author, publisher, and the the professor&#039;s customizations.  If a college/university were to move to Basecamp &amp; Campfire or any other LMS, they would need to learn how to import the Blackboard course from the textbook publisher.  I guess that many LMS developers often forget about course creation and development.  

One aspect, I always liked about seeing when Students log into Blackboard, is I could use that as a grading aspect and as a matter of recourse for those students who claim to be doing work, but then not actually logging in and doing the work.  Although, one could substitute that easily with some other form.  

Good idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you seen moodle.org an open sourced LMS product?  </p>
<p>I like your idea of using Basecamp, Campfire together to create an LMS. In fact, I might even think about trying to build a third party tool for it.  Then again, maybe not, but good idea.  </p>
<p>Besides bureaucracy, there is another reason Blackboard has the market.  Blackboard has relationships with Book Publishers. Textbooks publishers create blackboard versions of their courses which makes it relatively easy for professors to customize Blackboard for their own course which may or may not be a good for the students depending upon the textbook author, publisher, and the the professor&#8217;s customizations.  If a college/university were to move to Basecamp &amp; Campfire or any other LMS, they would need to learn how to import the Blackboard course from the textbook publisher.  I guess that many LMS developers often forget about course creation and development.  </p>
<p>One aspect, I always liked about seeing when Students log into Blackboard, is I could use that as a grading aspect and as a matter of recourse for those students who claim to be doing work, but then not actually logging in and doing the work.  Although, one could substitute that easily with some other form.  </p>
<p>Good idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Anton Zolotov</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Zolotov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 16:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-26</guid>
		<description>Dear Wayne,

You raise an important point - how a subscription model would fix things. In my opinion, the main benefit of subscription based software is that it provides the newest software. It allows the developer to continually make software improvements and introduce new features. And that&#039;s the whole point. Only in rare cases can you reach a &quot;finished&quot; stage in an application where you don&#039;t have to make changes anymore. Upgrades force the decision makers to make more decisions - whether to upgrade. People don&#039;t like making decisions, because they are complex, and because they cost money, so they often resort to not make them at all, which in turn leads to the situation we&#039;re in right now with Blackboard.

If my school has not chosen to upgrade in 2.5 years, and it&#039;s not due to the licensing model, what could be the reason? I doubt they simply don&#039;t care enough. And if upgrades are part of the package, as you say, I don&#039;t see any reason not to upgrade.

My feeling is that we don&#039;t upgrade because of bad reasons: an antiquated business model that focuses on exploiting the customer rather than providing the best possible product and a bureaucratic structure where the decision makers are not the users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Wayne,</p>
<p>You raise an important point &#8211; how a subscription model would fix things. In my opinion, the main benefit of subscription based software is that it provides the newest software. It allows the developer to continually make software improvements and introduce new features. And that&#8217;s the whole point. Only in rare cases can you reach a &#8220;finished&#8221; stage in an application where you don&#8217;t have to make changes anymore. Upgrades force the decision makers to make more decisions &#8211; whether to upgrade. People don&#8217;t like making decisions, because they are complex, and because they cost money, so they often resort to not make them at all, which in turn leads to the situation we&#8217;re in right now with Blackboard.</p>
<p>If my school has not chosen to upgrade in 2.5 years, and it&#8217;s not due to the licensing model, what could be the reason? I doubt they simply don&#8217;t care enough. And if upgrades are part of the package, as you say, I don&#8217;t see any reason not to upgrade.</p>
<p>My feeling is that we don&#8217;t upgrade because of bad reasons: an antiquated business model that focuses on exploiting the customer rather than providing the best possible product and a bureaucratic structure where the decision makers are not the users.</p>
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		<title>By: Anton Zolotov</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Zolotov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-25</guid>
		<description>Alex,

Basecamp does allow you to export all your data if you are an account administrator, either in raw XML or in HTML format.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex,</p>
<p>Basecamp does allow you to export all your data if you are an account administrator, either in raw XML or in HTML format.</p>
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		<title>By: Anton Zolotov</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Zolotov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-24</guid>
		<description>Greg,

I am aware of that limitation, but I am wondering why you need to know what a student has done while logged in. How would that improve your performance as a professor? I think that if you care enough to raise that question, you don&#039;t depend on that feature anyways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,</p>
<p>I am aware of that limitation, but I am wondering why you need to know what a student has done while logged in. How would that improve your performance as a professor? I think that if you care enough to raise that question, you don&#8217;t depend on that feature anyways.</p>
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		<title>By: Anton Zolotov</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Zolotov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-23</guid>
		<description>Austin,

Sounds intriguing. Is it going to be for individual courses/professors, or university-wide?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Austin,</p>
<p>Sounds intriguing. Is it going to be for individual courses/professors, or university-wide?</p>
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		<title>By: Austin Bales</title>
		<link>http://antonzolotov.com/2009/12/09/why-basecamp-and-campfire-would-be-a-better-learning-management-system/comment-page-1/#comment-20</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin Bales</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonzolotov.com/?p=110#comment-20</guid>
		<description>A project called Euclid started this fall at Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh that aims to solve these problems. It&#039;s focus has started small: assignments, grades, e-Mail, and documents. It&#039;s a configuration-free, subscription based Ruby application. It&#039;s also built with design, art and architects in mind with built-in galleries and critiques. SCORM and (often unusable) prior art aside, people really want a simple way to work, and that&#039;s what Euclid Project is about.

Professors can request more info at: http://euclid-project.org/beta</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A project called Euclid started this fall at Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh that aims to solve these problems. It&#8217;s focus has started small: assignments, grades, e-Mail, and documents. It&#8217;s a configuration-free, subscription based Ruby application. It&#8217;s also built with design, art and architects in mind with built-in galleries and critiques. SCORM and (often unusable) prior art aside, people really want a simple way to work, and that&#8217;s what Euclid Project is about.</p>
<p>Professors can request more info at: <a href="http://euclid-project.org/beta" rel="nofollow">http://euclid-project.org/beta</a></p>
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